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roger
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After 12 years of trying, I'm now A OK


« on: August 24, 2017, 06:08:37 AM »

Please note - before reading this thread and any that might follow, it's important to read the introduction thread because this will give you an indication as to whether or not this board might be of value to you.

When I sat down to write this thread, I was thinking in terms of outlining the options related to particular deficiencies, but then I realised that that would be pointless because I have no idea what deficiencies anyone reading this thread has, and it’s quite possible that I might unknowingly influence someone to buy something they don’t need.

So, instead, I’ll mention the one key thing I learned during years of researching supplements, which is that quality is everything. My best guess is that around 90% of the supplements currently on the Market aren’t very good. So based on that, around 90% of people are, at least to some extent, wasting their money. Yes, the good ones are more expensive, but to my mind, it makes sense to buy one efficacious one than two that don’t work or don’t work very well. However, I have learned a lot about what’s out there, so if anyone wants a view on any particular supplement, post on this thread and I’ll do my best to help, as long as you don’t accept such help as a recommendation to buy.

So, this thread is very short. Well maybe not because what I’d like to do now is talk in detail about the one supplement that I suspect very few people reading this will be using, and if they are, they’re probably using the wrong one. In the emotions thread, I mentioned that at the mental level a certain book was a major turning point for me. Well on the physical level, this supplement was the other. Whether it will be a key turning point for you, I don’t know. But it might be. If the supplement Gestapo knocked on my door demanding that I hand over all my supplements, I’d make every effort to hide one of them. That one would be MSM.

Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM)

MSM is a major metabolite of DMSO, which has been used for decades, orally, topically and intravenously to tackle hard to deal with ‘imbalances’ like lupus, diabetic ulcerations, scleroderma and all types of arthritis, for example. It has been heavily researched and found to have many healing properties – It’s an analgesic, an anti-inflammatory, it dilates blood vessels, it reduces all types of pain and muscle spasms, it easily passes through cell membranes and the blood brain barrier, it’s anti-parasitic and it can normalise the immune system, for example – the list goes on and on. But it’s not perfect. Used for any length of time, the user can develop a rotten fish odour, and some users have developed liver and/or kidney problems. It can be bought on Amazon, but I’d never use it without the support of a professional who is expert in its use and the potential damage it can cause.

MSM however, has most of DMSO’s benefits without the potential downsides, other than one minor one that I’ll come to later. Unfortunately, there has been little scientific research on MSM, probably because it’s not patentable, but there’s a huge amount of anecdotal evidence from users regarding all manner of benefits. Also though, there have also been some ‘this stuff’s useless’ comment. I now think I know why.

In the late 1990’s I bought a book called ‘The Miracle of MSM’, which seemed well researched and informative. So much so, that I bought some MSM capsules – which I much later found to be a mistake. After around three months of taking the capsules, I’d felt no benefit at all, so I stopped taking them and forgot all about MSM.

It would be between three and four years ago that I heard an interview with a guy called Patrick McGean who, with his wife, had been running what he calls ‘The Sulphur Study’ for around fifteen years. This isn’t a scientific study, it simply receives anecdotal reports back from two hundred thousand (that was then, probably more now) participants using a particular type of MSM. The list of positive reports received is endless but includes – chronic constipation resolved, more vivid dreams, morning erections (in the men!), memory returning to dementia patients, people leaving care homes and returning to their own homes, men with erectile dysfunction no longer needing Viagra, older women no longer needing vaginal lubricants, years of chronic pain resolved, and arthritis patients no longer needing medication. These are just a few of the reported benefits. There is no way to validate anecdotal reports, but they do exist in their thousands.

His explanation for these results was that the MSM transports much needed oxygen through all the body’s cell membranes directly into the cells. This creates energy and allows the cells to excrete their toxins, which the sulphur in the MSM then sulphates and escorts from the body in the normal way – in effect, the MSM is a master detoxifier of the whole body including the brain. But, and this is very important, the oxygen it carries isn’t from the air you breathe, but from the water you drink, so you MUST drink lots of water – see the calculation in my previously posted water thread, and the amount suggested there is a minimum!

Earlier, I mentioned one minor downside, which is that some people can get quite a nasty detox reaction when taking MSM. The reason for this is that they’re taking enough to get the oxygen into the cells to release their toxins, but not enough to sulphate the toxins out, so they remain in the blood stream causing the reaction. The answer to this isn’t to stop taking the MSM, but to INCREASE the amount being taken.

He went on to say that MSM in capsule form is basically useless - reminding me of my previous experience - because the capsules contain several excipients, including silicon dioxide, which blocks the sulphur uptake. He also pointed out that most powder or crystal MSM is polluted, and many are chemically (rather than naturally) derived, and although they are MSM from a chemical makeup point of view, they’re largely ineffective from an efficacious point of view.

I was quite impressed by all this, and so was the interviewer. So much so that he agreed to take the sulphur at the standard dose – two heaped teaspoons a day taken approximately twelve hours part - then invite Patrick McGean back for a second interview two weeks later. During that second interview, he discussed all the benefits that he had found. This specific form of MSM is now for sale on the interviewer’s website, and has attracted hundreds of positive reviews – you can see them here.

I’d have bought some at that time, but including carriage from the States along with potential import duties, the cost was extremely prohibitive. But then one of my favourite UK health product websites, started to stock it, and I’ve been using it ever since.

So, what benefits have I found? The first things I noticed were stronger nails and hair, and feeling more randy than usual. Then I realised that the last of what the ‘medical Machine’ called my fibromyalgia disappeared, as did the arthritic pain in my left knee and left forefinger. I was sleeping deeper, though not longer, and after years of heavy smoking, I was a bit ‘chesty’, and that cleared up. And finally, the energy I’d forgotten I’d ever had returned. Please don’t think this happened overnight, but most of it happened within six months, and some became noticeable within two to four weeks.

This is the one I use, and yes, at around 58p a day, it isn’t cheap. But, ignoring my own advice that ‘quality counts and quality costs’, I have tried several other much cheaper makes over the last two years or so. All but one were completely ineffective, and I’d say that the one that looked impressive when I researched it, did have some effect, and it was about half the price. But the sulphur study one was way more than twice as effective, so I returned to it.

Finally, if you do decide to try this, there are two further things to know – 1) It is quite bitter, but you soon get used to that. 2) If, say, after three weeks, you’ve felt nothing, first, are you drinking enough water? If you are, increase the MSM dose. It’s completely non-toxic so you can take pretty well as much as you like.

So there we have it – If the supplement Gestapo come knocking on my door, they can sod off because my MSM will be hidden under the floorboards. This is the one supplement I intend to take for the rest of my life - so about another fifty years - and if I had financial problems, I’d fund it by reducing or even ceasing the use of all the other stuff I take.

NOTE – I’ve spoken to Ancient Purity and despite the fact that their margins have been severely squeezed due to the current £/$ relationship, they’ve kindly agreed a 10% first purchase discount for anyone who wants to try the MSM. At checkout, enter cfs10 in the code box.

Please feel free to post with any questions, arguments or points for discussion.



« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 08:54:31 AM by roger » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2017, 12:23:14 PM »

Hi Roger,

I was interested in finding out if a healthy diet provides enough sulphur.  I found this article, 'Are we getting enough sulfur in our diet?' which appears to review previous studies.  It been been quite a few years since I critiqued research Roger and your knowledge on this subject far exceeds mine.  Below is the discussion following review of the studies.

Glutathione (GSH)is the most abundant low molecular weight thiol and form of storage of SH-. Animal and human studies have demonstrated that adequate protein nutrition is crucial for the maintenance of GSH homeostasis [48]. Elevated levels of GSH inhibit prostaglandin production by a direct interaction with COX enzymes, of potential significance in the progression of inflammatory or degenerative states [36]. It is of particular interest, as discussed earlier that prostagandins synthesized from PUFA and most of the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs share this same locus of involvement. It is also relevant that some recent studies have found that on occasions the pain reduction in OA associated with the administration of chondroitin sulfate, a source of sulfur, was found to be equivalent to that provided by NSAID. The reasons for such unpredictable results, we suspect could be associated with differences in levels of protein in the diet, the better responders consuming higher amounts of SAA. This hypothesis will have to be evaluated in future clinical studies.

As discussed neither cysteine nor methionine are stored in the body. Any dietary excess is readily oxidized to sulfate, excreted in the urine (or reabsorbed depending on dietary levels) or stored in the form of glutathione (GSH). Even in extreme situations, such as when tryptophane deficiency leads to a general catabolic effect, the organism tries to spare the loss of sulfur by continuing to store any available sulfur as GSH in the liver. GSH values are subnormal in a large number of wasting diseases and following certain medications, and by supplying SAA many of these changes can be reversed [49]. Whether dietary supplements containing sulfur display similar effects has not been evaluated systematically. Documented improvements in OA and joint pains associated with sulfurated water hydrotherapy, many times accompanied by the simultaneous ingestion of such waters has also been related to the GSH involvement in the antioxidant cascade.

In spite of the apparent complexity associated with evaluating the dietary intake of a population as a whole a pattern seems to emerge, even when evaluating small groups of individuals. In milk and dairy products the methionine/cysteine ratio is around 3/1. It is roughly the same in fishes such as canned tuna, which we used as a source of protein supplement in our studies, and in meats. In eggs, soy beans and other plant products it is around 4/3. The amount of protein in the various foods varies considerably, and the amount of SAA fluctuates. Chicken, fish and beef proteins contain an average of around 5% of SAA. Dairy products, milk, cheese, etc, contain lower levels, around 4%, primarily due to the lower content of SAA in casein. The whey protein fraction, accounts for about 20% of the milk proteins (rich in lactoglobulins) contains more SAA, and is used therapeutically or as a dietary supplement. Plant proteins, in addition to be present in lower amounts, are relatively low in SAA, averaging below 4%. The highest content of SAA is found in egg products, the egg white containing around 8% of SAA.

Consequently the ratios observed in a dietary survey will reflect the amounts of meats, eggs and plant products consumed. The amounts of protein, as a % of the calories consumed, is a major variable in the population. The more weight conscious individuals, and often the ones in more affluent societies, tend to consume less carbohydrate and fats and more proteins. This is counterbalanced some times by the tendency of many to consume less animal products and therefore to include more carbohydrates. In addition the desire to lose weight may reduce both calories and protein intake. Older people, at a time when OA becomes more prevalent, decrease their food intake often at the expense of proteins, frequently due to economic concerns.

Most individuals fall in between the groups established arbitrarily for the purpose of this study, but once a dietary pattern is established deviations are much less than expected. In our experimental studies, the levels of SAA were predetermined and individuals placed on pre-assigned diets containing known amounts of protein. This is critical, since even though the amounts of SAA intake closely reflects the rate of sulfate excretion, below a certain level of intake tubular reabsorption of sulfates prevents further loss. In rats, sulfate renal clearance was significantly decreased in animals that received a low methionine diet, a reflection of a sparing mechanism to retain sulfate [39]. A major unanswered question is how the overall caloric intake affects the requirements of sulfur used for other than protein synthetic purposes, and how long a sparing effect can continue during the prolonged intake of a low protein diet.

Any excess of SAA is oxidized to inorganic sulfate and excrete in the urine as neither organic nor inorganic excesses of sulfur can be stored. The normal concentration of sulfate in serum is around 3.5 mg/100 ml, roughly 5–10% of that as ether sulfate and the rest as sulfate ions. Sulfur is excreted in the urine as it exists in blood.

A deficiency of sulfur amino acids has been shown to compromise glutathione synthesis to a greater extent than protein synthesis in the presence and absence of inflammatory stimulus [34]. During an immune/inflammatory response a combination of enhanced utilization of cysteine for GSH synthesis and cell replication may be what leadsto a depletion of cellular SAM.

In man serum fasting levels of inorganic sulfate were shown to increase with age and exhibit a circadian rhythm, probably associated with food intake. Genetic defects in sulfate transport have been associated with congenital osteochondrodystrophies that may be lethal and provide insights into sulfate transport and hormonal and nutritional regulation [50]. Whereas low levels of dietary protein led to hip joint displasia in mice and rats normal levels inhibited the development of OA.

Even though under normal circumstances dietary inorganic sulfate contributes very little to our sulfate pool, the exogenous administration of small amounts of sulfate in selected forms of delivery may be useful, since contrary to what is still a common belief sulfate can be absorbed form the GI tract [41, 51]. Along these lines the possible beneficial effects of inorganic sulfates in drinking water should be evaluated. Certain sulfur containing thermal water baths have been found to be of benefit, probably via transdermal penetration or because of actual drinking of such waters at health spas [21, 52, 53, 54, 55].

On the other hand it is important to recollect that sulfation is a major pathway for detoxification of pharmacological agents by the liver. Drugs such as acetaminophen, so frequently used in the treatment of pain associated with joint diseases, require large amounts of sulfate for their excretion. Doses of up to 4 g/day are not infrequent. Thirty five % is excreted conjugated with sulfate, 3% conjugated with cysteine [12] and the rest conjugated with glucuronic acid, incidentally a major component of glycosamino glycans (GAG) which are so critical for the integrity of cartilage and other connective tissues.

Methionine or cysteine (0.5%) added to the diet can overcome the severe methionine deficiency induced in rats by the addition of 1% acetaminophen, an equivalent to the 4 g/day of the human dose. D- as well as L-methionine were found to be equally effective, suggesting that depletion of sulfur was at the root of the primary defect and that it was unrelated to protein synthesis. It is well known that N-acetyl-p-benzoquinoneimine, a toxic metabolite of acetaminophen is detoxified by hepatic GSH. Rapid administration of acetyl-cysteine to restore GSH levels remains the treatment of choice following acetaminophen poisoning. Hepatic concentrations of active sulfate, in the form of PAPS (adenosine-3'-phosphate 5'-phosphosulfate) were also decreased and could be restored to normal by supplementation with methionine [13].

The effectiveness of D-methionine in this connection brings back to mind the early studies of Rose who used DL-methionine in his early balance studies which led to the RDA recommendations, again suggesting a significant role for the SAA, beyond that of protein synthesis. That cysteine, sulfite and other sources of sulfates can serve as precursors for GAG synthesis has been well established [56, 57, 58]. Also restricting the availability of dietary sulfur in rats (cysteine, sulfate) decreased the biotransformation of acetaminophen, as a consequence of the absence of inorganic sulfate for PAPS synthesis [13, 15]. Consequently, addition of a sulfur containing compound to medications such as acetaminophen or catabolic agents such as the corticosteroids, may be a potential way to compensate for sulfur loss.

A major question that arises in connection with dietary supplements that provide organic forms of sulfur, is whether the diet could account for differences in response amongst individuals. It is possible that the individuals that benefit mostly from these supplements are those that consume inadequate amounts of protein or other sources of dietary sulfate. A recent publication by Drogue [59, 60], who has extensively investigated the relationship of oxidative stress and aging, has concluded that this event may be in great part be associated with a deficit of cysteine and to a suboptimal intake of SAA.

Finally it may be relevant to conclude this review with a statement taken from Sir Stanley Davidson and Passmore's classic textbook of Human Nutrition and Dietetics [61] who suggested that" it is not unlikely that some of the effects of protein deficiency are in fact due to failure of sulfur containing intermediates or even to sulfur containing polysaccharides. It is even possible that the ancient nostrum of 'brimstone and treacle' (sulfur and molasses) had nutritional value unsuspected by modern knowledge"

https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-4-24

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roger
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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2017, 12:33:15 PM »

Hi Talen, the answer to your question is that it doesn't. But MSM isn't sulphur, though it contains it. The piece you posted talks about inorganic sulphate, which I wouldn't want to consume.

Regarding getting all the necessary nutrients from diet, I'd say it's certainly possible in theory if what you eat has been grown in good soil and hasn't been sprayed, and if the animals we eat haven't been fed hormones and antibiotics. But who eats a diet like that?

Regarding the particular MSM that I suggested trying, all I can honestly say is what benefits I got from it at a level teaspoon twice a day, and these benefits as described in the post) were very substantial.

Thanks for posting.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 12:35:55 PM by roger » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2017, 12:22:02 PM »

Apologies Roger, I clicked on your link and saw organic sulphur in bold on the packaging.  That is why I got confused.  My brain is nowhere near what it used to be.  I read about MSM yesterday afternoon.  I am currently overhauling my supplements.  I may look at this in the future.

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roger
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2017, 01:06:13 PM »

No worries, Talen - it's easy to get confused by that. In fact I wish they didn't put that on the packet but I think they're trying to show the difference between the 'sulphur study' stuff and the inferior competition.

As I said in the post - if I could have only one supplement, this would be it.

Re your brain, based on your forum posts, if that's you on a bad day, your brain must be a force to be reckoned with on a good day  smile
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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2017, 01:22:07 PM »

Thank you for the compliment Roger.   Maybe in the 80's and 90's but not now.  If I was offered a substantial lottery win or wellness and the return of my memory and cognitive processes I would choose the latter.
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2017, 01:49:29 PM »

Me too Talen
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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2017, 02:09:25 PM »

There was a time when I couldn't remember the names of my grandchildren. Don't give up, folks, there's an answer, it'd just a matter of finding it.
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2017, 08:46:12 PM »

Roger,

This is the first chance I've had to read your 'Route to recovery' posts and I want to thank you so much for all the time and effort that you've put in to writing them. What a selfless person you are. Even if people aren't commenting on your posts as much as you'd hoped, rest assured that lots of folks out there are benefitting from them. We never really know how much we 'touch' others by our actions; we don't need to.

I just want to ask a quick question if I may about the MSM powder that you recommend. In their info, they recommend taking Vit C too. Do you do this? Sorry if you've already touched on this somewhere else.

Lesley
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roger
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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2017, 05:49:42 AM »

Thanks so much for your kind words, Lesley – much appreciated.

Of course you can ask a question – questions, arguments and discussion are what I was hoping for. It seems that combining MSM with Vitamin C (taken at different times) is good for collagen production, so it can’t be a bad idea, though not strictly necessary for the recognised MSM benefits. Personally, I take three grams of Vitamin C a day – more if I’m feeling under the weather – in the form of Sodium Ascorbate. Food sources like camu-camu, for example, are possibly more beneficial, but very expensive!

If you decide to try the MSM , don't forget to put cfs10 in the code box at checkout.

I hope that helps.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 07:29:17 AM by roger » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2017, 07:15:01 PM »

Thanks Roger.

Have you heard of many other people with M.E. benefitting from MSM powder?

Also, which Sodium Ascorbate do you use?

Lesley
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 05:32:31 AM »

Hi Lesley,

Apart from me, no, but I don't know anyone with ME who's tried it. But I do know people with other issues who've benefited tremendously.

Sodium ascorbate is everywhere, but the one I use is - http://www.puresourcenutrition.co.uk/sodium-ascorbate.html - the 500 grams option. At 3 grams a day, this will last almost 6 months. Vitamin C only stays in the body for a short time, so if taking three grams a day, take it in three 1 gram doses - morning, midday and evening. You get a little one gram scoop in the pack, but sometimes you have to dig for it!
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 06:19:32 AM by roger » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2017, 12:09:31 PM »

Thanks for the info, Roger!

Lesley
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 12:26:13 PM »

 thumbsup smile
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« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2017, 12:57:09 PM »

Hi Roger

Can you remember if you got headaches when you first started using msm, I been taking it for just over a week and seem to have a headache everyday, making sure Im drinking plenty of water.
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« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2017, 01:30:03 PM »

Hi TP,

That's a detox sign and it's good. But if the headaches are unmanageable, there are three things to consider. 1) Are you drinking plenty of clean water? If not, do so because that will excrete the toxins you're producing more quickly. 2) If you ARE drinking lots of water, take MORE MSM, not less because you're probably taking enough to release toxins from your cells, but not enough to sulphate them out of the body. 3) If neither 1) or 2) help, then try taking the MSM with a meal. But please ensure you're doing 1) first. If you're not, then you'll get no benefit from the MSM. Remember that the MSM uses oxygen from water, NOT from your lungs.

But as I said at the start, the headaches are a good sign, not a bad one - it's not the MSM that's causing them, it's your toxins!

If the above isn't clear, please post again.

Good luck!

PS - I'm assuming you got the MSM from Ancient Purity.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 01:32:21 PM by roger » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2017, 03:15:02 PM »

Yes I did get it from ancient purity, drinking 2 litres of water a day

How much should I up the dosage by? I am taking 2 teaspoons a day?
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« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2017, 05:14:57 PM »

First, water - The standard is half your body weight in pounds in ounces of water, so if you weigh 140lbs, for example, you need 70oz of water. A litre is about 35 fl oz, so 2 litres is okay if you weigh less than 140lbs. But that's a minimum.

Re how much to take if getting detox symptoms - I'm afraid there's a bit of experimentation needed, but to start with I'd say if you're taking level teaspoons, try heaped. If you're taking heaped, try one and a half. Then increase from there if no improvement after three or four days.

Hope that helps.
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