August 01, 2014, 02:51:09 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Over breathing  (Read 2774 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
roger
Retired Moderator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9122


I'm a CFS sufferer...making good progress


WWW
« on: February 13, 2011, 05:32:05 PM »

Are any of the following symptoms familiar to you Ė

Palpitations
Shortage of breath/inability to take a deep breath
Dry/sore throat
Dry cough
Stuffy nose
Chest pain
Regular yawning and/or sighing
Dizziness/light headedness
Tingling Ė hands/feet/around the mouth/limbs
Weakness in all muscles
Numbness Ė anywhere in the body
Jelly legs
Digestion problems
Muscle spasm
Anxiety
Panic attacks
Feelings of unreality
Poor memory
Agoraphobia

I came upon this list several years ago whilst researching CFS/ME, and was immediately struck by the fact that a fair few of the things on the list, which is an over-breathing or chronic hyperventilation symptom list, were familiar to me. Obviously, that grabbed my attention.

 I considered for a while, but my vision of a hyperventilator was of a person instructed to pant heavily into a brown paper bag, perhaps following a nasty shock or an accident. As none of that related to me, I dismissed thoughts of the familiar symptoms and forgot all about the subject.

It was probably a year or so later when I was talking on the phone to a doctor, who suddenly said, ĎDíyou realise that youíre over-breathing?í She went on to explain that the sort of hyperventilation I was aware of is totally different to chronic hyperventilation, which she suspected in me. She then went on to explain that itís very difficult to spot, which is why most doctors miss it. She added that in her experience, a very high percentage of CFSers are chronic hyperventilators and that dealing with it is a crucial part of the recovery process.

So, I investigated further and began to religiously practice the appropriate breathing exercises that I learned about on a set of MP3 tracks. It took about three months and the process was a bit of a chore Ė four fifteen minute sessions a day, but I eventually lost several of my symptoms and felt generally much better.

So, is it possible that chronic hyperventilation might be contributing to your problems?

To try and establish if it might be, ask someone to count how many times you breathe in a minute when youíve been sitting, relaxed for at least ten minutes and when youíre not aware that youíre Ďbeing countedí -  donít try to do it yourself because youíll subconsciously skew the result, often quite dramatically. 8/10 or lower is okay, 12 is borderline, anything over 12 isnít good, and anything over 16 is bad. Itís as well to do the test a few times to see if the result is consistent.

I think itíd be almost impossible to retrain chronic hyperventilation with no help at all, but a good explanation of what CH is all about along with some appropriate exercises can be very helpful, so I think you can manage correction without a therapist as long as youíre prepared to put the work in.

If you find that you ARE over-breathing via the test described above and the presence of some symptoms from the above list, and would like details of the MP3 tracks I used, PM me with your email address and Iíll tell you where to get them at the lowest possible cost.

Finally, I should stress that dealing with CH isnít going to cure your CFS/ME, but I do believe that in many cases itís part of the jigsaw puzzle and that dealing with it will be very worthwhile.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 05:36:04 PM by roger » Logged

'Nothing is, but thinking makes it so'
angeltripping
Guest
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2011, 10:21:59 AM »

Thanks for sharing I know I am one of those who breathes too fast. My hubby has tried to match his breathing to mine when I am asleep(!) and he can't do it because he ends up hyperventilating. I also have a slow heart beat...it makes me laugh when they say atheletes have my heart beat but no one has ever done anything about it. Wonder if this is part of the big puzzle...and damn what a puzzle it is!
I understand the idea of curing it when your awake but what about when you are asleep?
peace and love
angeltripping
Logged
roger
Retired Moderator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9122


I'm a CFS sufferer...making good progress


WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2011, 10:40:43 AM »

Hi AT,

Breathing is an automatic process so you'll tend to breathe the same when asleep or awake. Therefore, if you solve the day time problem, the chances are that the night time one will also resolve.

I know you've been having a really bad time lately - I hope things start to improve very soon.
Logged

'Nothing is, but thinking makes it so'
angeltripping
Guest
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 07:42:04 AM »

Thanks Roger
appreciate it
peace and love
angeltripping
Logged
roger
Retired Moderator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9122


I'm a CFS sufferer...making good progress


WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 09:06:28 AM »

Hang on in there, AT, your day will come  hug
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 11:30:19 AM by roger » Logged

'Nothing is, but thinking makes it so'
angeleyes40
Site Owner
Lifetime Member
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 4709


I'm a CFS sufferer...


WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2011, 01:08:31 PM »

My gp had commented a long time back that i had been over breathing also..... At the time his was nit something that I was aware of, but now I know.....

I think mostly when I try to get things done in the house etc I do feel very short of breath, I am not sure if this is something to do with the over breathing, but it sounds as though I have just ran a marathon after doing something simple like fixing the throws and the cushions on my sofa.... undecided

I really do not understand it....

I am also dreadful for taking well, what I would call yawning fits lol yes, I do try to bring a bit of hilarity into it but it is not fun.....  As I just can't stop yawning, and it is nothing to do with being tired.....

angeleyes40 xx
Logged

There is more CFS/ME information and CFS/ME sufferers stories and experiences on the Main Website Please take a look....
roger
Retired Moderator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9122


I'm a CFS sufferer...making good progress


WWW
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2011, 01:25:52 PM »

Hi angeleyes40,

Breathlessness with little activity (obviously in the absence of lung/heart problems) and yawning are the two most common over-breathing symptoms. The solution isn't difficult, but it does require about an hour a day (four 15 minute sessions a day). So the question to all over-breathers is - are you prepared to put the effort in? Having said that, I do appreciate that for some, that hour a day is hard to find. But I know of no other solution, and over-breathing certainly makes life difficult for the body.
Logged

'Nothing is, but thinking makes it so'
trev
Donator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 626


I'm a CFS sufferer...


« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2011, 07:33:37 AM »

hi roger i know what you mean with the breathing mines up the spout as i have C O P D at the moment i have a head cold

i can feel it moving down to my chest so hope i will be able to breath when that happens hee20hee20hee  Kiss trev
Logged
roger
Retired Moderator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9122


I'm a CFS sufferer...making good progress


WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2011, 08:31:46 AM »

Hi Trev,

I'm sorry to hear you have COPD, for which the techniques for general over-breathing aren't designed. Have you heard of a thing called a salt pipe? The reason I ask is that I have a friend who has COPD and he finds his salt pipe very helpful in terms of relieving symptoms. I'm NOT suggesting this possibility as a replacement for conventional treatment, but it might just help supplement it.....with no side effects.
Logged

'Nothing is, but thinking makes it so'
trev
Donator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 626


I'm a CFS sufferer...


« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2011, 09:02:55 AM »

hi roger mmm you got me on that one never heard of a salt pipe  sign0085 how can i get one and where from 

try anything once thanks for your help roger  Kiss trev xxx
Logged
roger
Retired Moderator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9122


I'm a CFS sufferer...making good progress


WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2011, 09:23:16 AM »

Hi Trev,

Here's a link - http://www.tower-health.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=93&products_id=490&gclid=CPKVtbLomKcCFcULfAod3FR-cg

You can get one from Bodykind via the link at the bottom of the main forum page c&p free - just put salt pipe in the Bodykind search box. Doing it that way helps support the forum.
Logged

'Nothing is, but thinking makes it so'
iddm
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1424

I'm a CFS and FM sufferer...


« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2011, 12:03:29 PM »

Quote
This research group from the University of Iowa has explained the mechanism whereby the brain is sensitive to increasing acidity, triggering a fear/panic response. They explain that they have identified that the amygdala is: "an important chemosensor that detects hypercarbia and acidosis and initiates behavioral responses." They have offered a molecular explanation for how rising CO2 concentrations triggers intense fear and provides a foundation for understanding one cause of anxiety and panic disorders.

Hypercarbia refers to the physical condition of having the presence of an abnormally high level of carbon dioxide in the circulating blood. This can occur as a result of poor breathing patterns - literally hypoventilation (the exact opposite of over-breathing - hyperventilation). Hypoventilation leads to higher levels of CO2 than is normal in the blood, thus resulting in respiratory acidosis.
 

under breathing I think is more my issue Roger....but i definately get breathless easily.
My husband breathes a lot faster than me at night

iddm


Logged

I maybe a sufferer but I'm no longer a victim to it.
roger
Retired Moderator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9122


I'm a CFS sufferer...making good progress


WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2011, 12:20:34 PM »

Thatís interesting, iddm Ė in over-breathing, the problem is one of too little CO2, which is required to release oxygen from the blood. In under-breathing, it makes sense that the same problem of poor oxygen/CO2 balance is present, but the other way around.

In my experience, though, and my experience is all it is, anxiety certainly results from over-breathing, in which Iím sure over-acidity is involved, though at the general cellular level rather than at the blood level, and every over anxious person Iíve ever met is an over-breather.

But as per the original post on this thread, whether or not over-breathing is an issue is easy to check. Not sure about under-breathing though. Normally, slow, deep abdominal breathing is good, so Iím guessing that theyíre talking about slow, shallow, chest breathing, which could certainly result in excess CO2.

Itís complicated though, isnít it   Smiley
Logged

'Nothing is, but thinking makes it so'
Olive Oyl 5
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 125


« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2011, 01:00:43 PM »

I thought Amygdala was a princess not a parent(someone who initiates behavioral changes). What is she not telling us.

Sorry I couldn't resist.

OO
Logged
iddm
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1424

I'm a CFS and FM sufferer...


« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2011, 01:25:03 PM »

I did my return to nursing in 2005 and went over the general obsevation machines. We took eachothers pulse, bp, and sats. (o2 saturation) My sats were always on the low side. On the wards when patients have low sats after surgery they are told to remember to breathe lol. It maybe that they are not breathing sufficiently. It may also be though that they have lost fluid in the circulatory system. Obviously after surgery that can be because of blood loss etc. In that case drips are used but eventually patients are asked to drink. I do think sometimes that for me it can be because of not drinking enough water?

This is all to do with me thinking my way round the issue though and nothing to do with science.

Its not as easy as picking out one system and saying thats whats causing it. Different systems are linked.
Anxiety is only one issue. I wonder if anxiety is sometimes a symptom and not necessarilly a cause?
Some people deal with anxiety mich better than others....why is that? lol maybe its because they drink more water or they sleep better....
Logged

I maybe a sufferer but I'm no longer a victim to it.
roger
Retired Moderator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9122


I'm a CFS sufferer...making good progress


WWW
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2011, 02:26:53 PM »

Can't see a water connection, iddm, and I believe there's a lot of nonsense talked about 'water at the exclusion of all else' - er, why? But there's no doubt that a huge amount of interlinking going on. Acidosis and poor breathing, for example, are two examples of things that are interlinked with loads of things.

Maybe we have to ask ourselves what was the FIRST body thing to go wrong, then ask ourselves why?
Logged

'Nothing is, but thinking makes it so'
iddm
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1424

I'm a CFS and FM sufferer...


« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2011, 03:34:51 PM »

why water?

cos other things contain other things which the body has to deal with.
The body is made up of water...everthing else is either a food or a toxin.
Drinks like tea and coffee and alcohol actually dehydrate.
Fruit juice is full of sugars which means the body is dealing with energy building blocks.

Water detoxes and cleanses. We need a good couple of pints a day to help the body out and wash the organs.
Logged

I maybe a sufferer but I'm no longer a victim to it.
roger
Retired Moderator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9122


I'm a CFS sufferer...making good progress


WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2011, 03:43:22 PM »

Sorry, iddm, we'll have to disagree on that. Certainly, alcohol dehydrates you, which is one of many reasons why you shouldn't touch it. But the dehydrating effect of tea and coffee is more than neutralised by the water that it's made with. Water with apple cider vinegar is enhanced by the benefits of the ACV, same goes for molasses. I wouldn't touch commercially produced fruit juice with a barge pole, but fruit juice (or smoothie) made at home with real fruit and no additives or pasteurisation (the killer of so much goodness) is, again, enhanced unless you have a serious blood sugar problem. Even then, fructose doesn't need insulin for metabolism. I could go on, but I'm in danger of becoming boring  Smiley 

 
Logged

'Nothing is, but thinking makes it so'
trev
Donator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 626


I'm a CFS sufferer...


« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2011, 04:11:06 PM »

hi roger that salt pipe looks good clap but i will have a word with my doctor she's great smile only because

of the inhalers im on same as your mate i expect but i have had part of my lung taken away

so i will see what she has to say about it  051bye thanks roger  Kiss trev xxx
Logged
roger
Retired Moderator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 9122


I'm a CFS sufferer...making good progress


WWW
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2011, 04:19:36 PM »

That's good thinking, Trev, though I'll be a bit surprised if she knows what a salt pipe is, and when that's the case, they usually say don't bother. I do know that they have no adverse interaction with inhalers and, in fact, my friend no longer needs his inhalers, but of course your situation may well be entirely different to his.

Whatever, good luck.
Logged

'Nothing is, but thinking makes it so'
trev
Donator
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 626


I'm a CFS sufferer...


« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2011, 04:31:06 PM »

thanks for info roger Kiss trev xxx
Logged
Anttas
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2013, 06:55:51 AM »

I came accross chronic hyperventilation at a Low Back Pain seminar.

The advice was simply to slow down every exhalation to 50% of its natural speed for a period of 3 to 10 minutes, by constricting the lips or throat muscles.  Let the in-breath do what it wants without interference.  If half speed is too confronting just take a little pace off the out breath.  It is so simple, and easy, but great benefit can be had from practicing this regularly throughout the day, and through the night when rest is important but sleep won't come.

This helps with postural effects of overbreathing, but this technique, as advertised seems to increase pain thresholds, makes people a bit less infalmmatory, a bit less allergic, and a bit calmer emotionally.

In my CFS experience i had times where i had what felt like anxiety, which seems to have been the result of stress causing my adrenals to run short of cortisol, resulting in my body just running rampant with unbuffered adrebnalin.  Breathing tricks made no difference to this.
Logged
mumsy
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 126


Newly diagnosed with ME/CFS and hyperventilation


« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2013, 08:32:13 AM »

This thread is really interesting. Before being diagnosed with ME/CFS I was diagnosed by a physio (who I saw for back pain) with chronic hyperventilation syndrome and also post traumatic stress ... Both have overlapping symptoms and are certainly very debilitating however neither have the extreme pain and brain fog that come with ME/CFS. When I was eventually diagnosed by a lung consultant with ME/CFS he referred me for lung physio to else image the symptoms of CVS. He thought that CVS is often a symptom of ME/CFS and although physio can't treat the cause it can eleviate the symptoms! I will let you know as my first session isn't until August!!
Logged
neptuno
Lifetime Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 775


I'm a CFS sufferer...


« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2014, 01:17:01 PM »

I t seems to all tie in with Buteyko breathing. I studied this with Alexander Stalmatski - it's so simple I. Don't know why physics don't teach it as part of NHS treatments ,
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Black Rain by Crip

© Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
XHTML | CSS